Christianity & Race: 'Ye shall know them by their fruit,' yet what 'Strange Fruit' we have...
BTSF in chronological order (most recent articles appear first):
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2011
(112)
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August
(13)
- Pointing the Blame
- Twitter Conversation about Privilege
- The Social Gospel Saved my Soul
- Affirmative Action (part 4)
- Affirmative Action (part 3)
- Affirmative Action (part 2)
- Affirmative Action (Part 1)
- Marcus Garvey
- "Basically good" and "I'm not a racist, but..."
- Welcome New Followers!
- White Savior Complex
- James Baldwin
- Free-trial loans on Kiva!
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August
(13)
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Hi
ReplyDeleteBTSF, I’d be willing to continue our dialogue if you are still up for
it. I guess I should start by letting you know where I’m coming from in
this conversation.
The
first thing is that my main goal is to seek clarity on this issue. I’m
not out to win a debate with you or even to try to convince you of
anything, I just want to understand different perspectives on this topic
(but I also try to clearly convey what I believe as of now). So if I
ask a lot of questions, its not because I’m trying to back you into a
corner or anything, I just want to have an understanding of how you view
the subject.
The
second thing is that most of my questioning is probably based on the
same motives you have. I want to find effective ways to help people who
are disadvantaged. I will probably never be able to convince people who
are critical of me, but the truth is my heart breaks for poor and
disadvantaged “people of color.” Not only because they are poor and
disadvantaged but because too many of those fighting on their behalf
believe their main struggle is racial discrimination. I completely want
to fight racism, and I have plenty of ideas on how to do so (and feel
free to steer the conversation towards this specific aspect of my
views), but I just fear racism has become the easy villain to hate and
we are overlooking the truly determining societal factors for
disparities in standards of living.
One
of the things that began my questioning was the fact that in so many
areas the disparity between whites and blacks have increased in the last
30 years (wealth gap, prison percentage, and unemployment gap to name a
few). I’m not convinced America has become more racist in the last 30
years. I’m not convinced that the kind of “covert racism” we have today
is more damaging than any kind of racism 30 years ago. I’m not convinced
past racism has become more damaging than when it was in full effect.
In short, I have serious doubts that racism is the main cause for these
disparities. I’m guessing this is our main point of disagreement? Do you
believe racism is the main cause? If so, how do you explain how the
disparities are growing? The main causes in my view are numerous and
complicated, but to give you a hint, two big ones are: family structure
as a major determining factor, and some of the social programs intended
to help. Oh, and I should also note that not for a second have I ever
believed the disparities are a result of innate differences in the
races. We probably agree that there aren’t technically different human
races, and that “races” were all made up socially.
Also
a point of clarification: In our twitter dialogue, I mistakenly thought
part of what you meant by affirmative action was quotas. After reading
your blog I quickly learned that was not the case. My main problem is
with quotas, and generally any government policy that sets standards
based on skin color.
Sorry
this was a bit long, but hopefully we can dive into this much deeper
than we could on twitter. Also do you mind if I post our conversation on
my blog as well?
I am really pumped to continue dialogue with you. Yes, we disagree about some things, but we also agree on others and I love your willingness to talk it out level headedly. That is the main reason I wanted to publish the conversation.
ReplyDeleteI need to be disciplined today and stay on track at work, but I promise I will respond better over the weekend.
Feel free to repost (if you wouldn't mind including a link back to source). If you want, can give you the HTML that allows for the dynamic interactions with the storyboard (replying and retweeting). I only just recently discovered 'storify' and I think it is a neat way to publish such things.
Re your ‘first thing’: Amen! I really respect this attitude—
ReplyDeleteeverything about it.
I don’t know that racism has necessarily grown or shrunk. There is a lot of division and
misunderstanding out there that really messes with any efforts for reconciliation.
But I also know things aren’t the way they used to be. I contemplate this in
myself a lot. How things gotten better, worse, or just different?
I don’t know that racism is the single driving force
propelling the disparities you mention—it almost certainly isn’t. I do think it
contributes and I do think that small prejudices and disadvantages quickly
snowball into generational and systematic issues that may or may not reflect
the original cause. I think when any
group that experiences disadvantage (and there are several, not just along
racial lines) while another group experience relative prosperity (even for a
short time) we see the sort of divergence you describe. Obviously a lot of
factors are at play here, though.
You’re right, we agree that there is no such thing as true
biological races. Glad to hear you there. It is, of course, a reality as a
social construct and has consequences as such. But, no, nothing ultimately is
behind it biologically. I keep meaning to do a post along those lines…will get
around to it eventually…
I bet we do have things to talk about regarding the two
hints you give. Both are a real mess. Open to creative solutions.
As we continue, forgive me if my responses are slow. I will
always respond, though.
Hi
ReplyDeleteagain BTSF, sorry its taken so long for me to respond but there has
been a lot to think about. I think we probably agree on a lot of general
statements and our disagreements probably come when talking about
specifics and what the focus should be. So I guess I’ll raise my
concerns about focusing on privilege along racial lines. It would be one
thing if people acknowledged that race isn’t the most determining
factor and simply want to talk about it regardless of the degree of its
role, like you have done, but in 90% of the times where people want to
talk about privilege it is about race. People act like it is the most
socially determining factor, and continue to incorrectly attribute
social problems to race. That’s why a major theme of my blog is
“racialism,” or basically making something about race when it isn’t.
That leads to another major problem I have with how race is talked
about, and that is people have become solution blind. There are a lot of
problems that come along with talking about privilege along racial
lines, even if it is done as carefully as possible. One thing is that it
will innately emphasize racial division. One might hope that yes,
people will be more aware of race, but they will be more sensitive
towards it. But this is very often not the case as you have pointed out
on your blog. People act defensively. People instinctively are inclined
to view themselves as a victim. People will think the achievements of
minorities were given to them out of white guilt rather than their
merits (thus undermining their dignity). All these elements contribute
to greater racial animosity. I might say this would all be worth it if
1. privilege along racial lines was one of the most significant factors
in determining economic status,and 2. if it produced real results that
outweighed these negatives. But as I see it, these conditions aren’t
met.
My main beliefs about the conversation on race is that ideally people
of color should be treated like anyone else, and race should never enter
into their judgment (in my view such a focus on race undermines this
ideal). Realistically they don’t need whites to understand white
privilege, although its fine if a person wants to contemplate such
things. Realistically, all they need is opportunity. I disagree with you
that “when any group that experiences disadvantage...while another
group experience relative prosperity (even for a short time) we see the
sort of divergence you describe.” Jewish Americans, Irish Americans,
Chinese Americans,etc. have all faced enormous discrimination but
because of opportunities presented to them they gained prosperity
despite this. Saying that the fate of people of color relies on whites
understanding their privilege makes people of color more dependent on
whites, thus increasing white supremacy, even if it has become a
friendly and compassionate white supremacy. Therefore my focus is
opportunity, the true foundation of privilege. A lot of the policies
that had the intentions of helping people of color have only limited
their opportunities. I suppose I should stop now before I go into all
the ways I think we should increase opportunity, I’ve already said
enough to respond to.
I am interested in several statements in your first paragraph. To whom do you refer? Who are having these conversations about privilege?
ReplyDeleteIn my daily experience, I very seldom hear conversations about race or privileged at all (besides in the obvious forums such as this that I seek out).
I'm not sure I full understand your second paragraph, so I'll simply say this and see if it relates: I will always be on the side of talking about the issues rather than pretending that they're not there. All hurts deserve to be reconciled and I don't believe that honest and calm conversation about such things will ever really make things worse. Do you suggest that we censor issue that are tedious to solve?
I def agree that POCs should be treated like everyone else. I just don't believe that doing nothing accomplishes this. They are currently treated differently. This is a fact (arguing about the size of the disparity, might be something else). So lack of action perpetuates the very issue that seems to bother you. Re your examples of other groups: Setting aside the fallacy of model-minority success for a moment, I would argue that the levels of discrimination against the groups you mentioned are not equal to one another, and certainly neither are the consequences or the resolution.
You make a good point that saying the success of POCs depends on white folks' understanding has a very 'white savior' ring to it. However, I am not trying to imply that white benevolence it the key. I do believe that 1) relationships require understanding and 2) the road to restoration is a whole lot easier when traveled with allies rather than adversaries.
I wish you hadn't stopped! How does one increase one's access to opportunity?
There are a lot of different topics here that we could go in depth into. My answers could all be expounded. I am happy to take the dialogue in whichever direction interests you.